sohotrightnow: Your music is bad and you should feel bad!

Jules (

sohotrightnow) wrote,
@ 2009-09-03 02:09 pm UTC

Current mood:	cranky
Entry tags:	lol fandom, lol fandom:genderfail

Your music is bad and you should feel bad!

Oh lordy-loo, so I am probably going to regret making this public, but enough people were encouraging of it that, okay, why the hell not.

Here is the thing: I am fully okay with exposing what bullshit the SurveyFail dudes were pulling. Sai and Ogi were, imo, condescending jerks who were using bad science and terrible data-gathering methods to try and prove that their sexist "findings" were right and to generally treat women's sexuality like it is something shocking and alien. This is really offensive to me.

But I am really, really not okay with some of the fic and art being posted. When I and a few others mentioned this in the comments of this post (WARNING: the art is extremely NSFW, and I've found out that I'm not the only one who first looked at that picture and saw a rape scene, even if it wasn't intended that way) expressed some of our issues with the idea of fandom's using sexual content as a way to humiliate the SurveyFail dudes,

elf responded (link) that fandom was using "explicit sexual situations, and tentacle porn, and humiliation, as tools of mockery" -- a mindset which, as

lindra pointed out here, stems from exactly the same place as sexual assault and rape, both of which are also about using "sexual situations...and humiliation as tools" to establish or affirm power.

I have no problem with RPF, fic or art. I have a problem with the fact that people are creating these things with the intention of maliciously shoving them in the subjects' faces, specifically for the purpose of humiliating them. There's been a lot of really intelligent discussion in this mess, and that we feel the need to undercut it with crap like this really disturbs me.

TL;DR I AM HUMORLESS.

...on the bright side, I got a much-needed haircut and now I look super-cute? :D?

ETA: Just as a heads-up, I'm going to be away from home for the holiday weekend, doing family stuff; I've got some limited wifi but will probably be keeping busy. I'm not, for the most part, ignoring anyone or refusing to engage, so my apologies if that's what it looks like, I'm just not going to have much computer time until Tuesday.

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	Here via Zvi naraht 2009-09-03 06:46 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, I agree. Thanks for saying it. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand)

	Re: Here via Zvi sohotrightnow 2009-09-03 06:56 pm UTC (link)
	:D Thank you! I'm glad to hear that I'm not just being humorless and srs bzns. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

Re: Here via Zvi -

naraht, 2009-09-03 06:58 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Here via Zvi -

sohotrightnow, 2009-09-03 07:00 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Here via Zvi -

fridgepunk, 2009-09-03 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Here via Zvi -

sohotrightnow, 2009-09-03 11:00 pm UTC (Expand)

Thoughts, literally on yaoi -

fridgepunk, 2009-09-04 01:23 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Thoughts, literally on yaoi -

sohotrightnow, 2009-09-04 01:36 am UTC (Expand)

marginalia
2009-09-03 06:47 pm UTC (link)

ew. i had skimmed past a post promoting that this morning, but was pretty squicked at the idea of googlebombing them with slash. i just hadn't thought much about any of this fail, really, other than AVOID.

I have no problem with RPF, fic or art. I have a problem with the fact that people are creating these things with the intention of maliciously shoving them in the subjects' faces, specifically for the purpose of humiliating them. There's been a lot of really intelligent discussion in this mess, and that we feel the need to undercut it with crap like this really disturbs me.

I CANNOT AGREE ENOUGH. for me, rpf is totally from a place of joy & love for people (or more accurately personas). and how is this supposed to create any respect for our argument? if anything it supports a vindictive/irrational stereotype. THANKS.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sohotrightnow
2009-09-03 06:59 pm UTC (link)

and how is this supposed to create any respect for our argument? if anything it supports a vindictive/irrational stereotype. THANKS.

YYYYYYY.

ishie said over on the mirrored LJ post that this really undermines a lot of the claims of fandom's use of sexual content as a positive, empowering thing, by demonstrating that we're just as happy to use sexual content as a shaming tool.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

(no subject) -

marginalia, 2009-09-03 07:13 pm UTC (Expand)

	cofax7 2009-09-03 06:49 pm UTC (link)
	+1 (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand)

	jae 2009-09-03 06:52 pm UTC (link)
	+2 (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

(no subject) -

sohotrightnow, 2009-09-03 06:56 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

sohotrightnow, 2009-09-03 06:56 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

cofax7, 2009-09-03 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)

	bossymarmalade 2009-09-03 07:01 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, and thank you for posting. I was already feeling a little uncomfortable about it and couldn't quite parse why; this has cleared things up for me. Like a balloon! And something bad happens! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sohotrightnow 2009-09-03 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	\o/ Glad I could help! I came as soon as I heard what happened centuries ago! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	YES! mecurtin 2009-09-03 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	If you've ever read comments on YouTube (NSFbrain, generally) you know how depressingly common the "s/he should be raped!" response is. If I ever found it funny or apropos, I don't anymore. Ever. For anyone. Thank you for saying this. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: YES!

sohotrightnow
2009-09-03 07:15 pm UTC (link)

Oh my god YouTube comments, don't even get me started. This was probably part of my initial DO NOT WANT reaction to the art -- when I first saw it, I parsed it as rape, and the suggestion that there are circumstances under which rape is deserved or funny is incredibly offensive to me. Even without reading it as rape, though, it's pretty fucking problematic for other reasons. >:(

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	snacky 2009-09-03 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	Here via cofax7, and yes, thank you. I saw that earlier and was really uncomfortable with it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sohotrightnow 2009-09-03 07:16 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, thank you. It's good to hear I'm not just dropping my monocle in horror or something. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

Re: Here via Zvi -

keeva, 2009-09-04 04:31 am UTC (Expand)

	(Anonymous) 2009-09-03 07:09 pm UTC (link)
	SO MUCH AGREEING. THAT ART WAS NOT OKAY. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sohotrightnow 2009-09-03 07:18 pm UTC (link)
	INORITE, TY. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	medie 2009-09-03 07:11 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, apparently I am a humorless old woman too, because yesterday? Soooo proud of fandom. Today, not so much at all. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sohotrightnow 2009-09-03 07:19 pm UTC (link)
	Just, ugh. As inlovewithnight said over on the mirrored LJ post, I feel like we're cutting off our nose to spite our face at this point. :\ (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

(no subject) -

medie, 2009-09-03 07:22 pm UTC (Expand)

	jonquil 2009-09-03 07:19 pm UTC (link)
	Via cofax7 Well said. Thank you. (Reply to this)

	haunted 2009-09-03 07:40 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for this. You've articulated what I was thinking but couldn't quite process. I'm not going back over to that post because I'm lol sensitive, but it's nice to see that a few people think this isn't okay. (Reply to this)

jadey
2009-09-03 07:41 pm UTC (link)

also here via Zvi, and I agree. I have avoided these posts every time someone has linked them because I'm not personally down with RPS in the first place, and in-your-face revenge!RPS was even less to my liking. That the artwork (which I steadfastly avoided viewing as well) could be interpreted as a rape scene is... disturbing yet again to a new level.

I'm really glad you said something. In retrospect, given how often I was commenting on this whole thing, I feel like a chickenshit for not speaking up on this sooner. Will remember this for next time (and there will be a next time, I'm sure).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jadey 2009-09-03 07:47 pm UTC (link)
	(sudden attack of disclosure: I'm not politically against RPS; I just don't like it myself, with one very weird exception) (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	acari 2009-09-03 08:03 pm UTC (link)
	I just took a look at the image and I have to agree with you. I had a visceral oh hell no response to it. I think it was the stockings and lacy underwear that did it for me. Humiliation through feminization. Oh hell no. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jaciem 2009-09-04 02:33 am UTC (link)
	This. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	darlas_mom 2009-09-03 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	Here via [Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<user="zvi">') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.] Here via <user="zvi">, and dude, so much agreeing here. I felt uncomfortable as soon as the first RPS ficlet of the two popped up, and I couldn't figure out why. You've articulated it beautifully. Thank you. (Reply to this)

	heathershaped 2009-09-03 08:13 pm UTC (link)
	Here via zvi, and thanks. I thought the macro and GIF spamming was fun and no less than those guys deserved. I think that thing that you just linked to is fandom stepping way over a line that is apparently thinner and more faint than I would have assumed. (Reply to this)

	riseupwithfists 2009-09-03 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	You're not being humorless at all; the art I came across made me really mortified. Fandom being silly and macro-spamming: fine. But some of it is crossing a malicious line. (Reply to this)

	trouble 2009-09-03 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	Oh thank you. I've been saying similar things to people privately, but haven't been up to dealing with any fallout. (Reply to this)

	thedivinegoat 2009-09-03 08:31 pm UTC (link)
	Why aren't you on skype so I can tell you how awesome you are? (Reply to this)

gloss
2009-09-03 08:32 pm UTC (link)

I've been going round and round in my head since you posted this under lock, because I agree with you but then I kept secondguessing myself and couldn't figure out how I felt about this. Like, there's sometimes power in using the majority's pejoratives against them (but that power is usually shortlived and emotionally satisfying, rather than politically/intellectually productive).

But using sex to humiliate someone just doesn't sit right with me. Oh, they deserve mockery, sure, but -- argh. I like to ~~pretend~~ act on the assumption that my version of fandom is sex positive. Mocking and humiliating our nemeses with sex is just...well. It reaffirms sex as negative, redeploys sex as a tool of violence and discipline.

And I guess I just can't support that.

(Reply to this)

melannen
2009-09-03 09:07 pm UTC (link)

See, I've been hesitant to speak up, because I was all about the use of porn as a protest tool against LJ back during Strikethrough, and may in fact have posted some to lj_news's profile page myself.

And yet the porn coming out of this round of fail has been making me really, really uncomfortable, and I can't really articulate why. Except maybe that this stuff is so much more *personal*; there's a long step between "lj and fandom do some dominance play" and "clearly he secretly wants to be raped by tentacles!"

(Reply to this)

	orca_girl 2009-09-03 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	Here via [Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<dw-user=cofax>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.] Here via <dw-user=cofax>. YES. Thank you for articulating this so well, especially the idea of using enforced inclusion in sexual material (let alone feminization) for the purposes of humiliation. Frat-boy humor: still not funny. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Hi People (Anonymous) 2009-10-10 04:05 am UTC (link)
	Hi People How are you doing? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	mab_browne 2009-09-03 09:23 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for articulating an issue that also bothered me. I know that this is fandom ::shrugs:: but I felt that at best that some responses undermined the arguments against Ogas, regardless of how justified the anger was. (Reply to this)

	kuwdora 2009-09-03 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	Here via cofax7. Fandom has been made of epic win. Until that. I am so disgusted now. Gah. (Reply to this)

	elf 2009-09-03 10:57 pm UTC (link)
	This post has been included in a linkspam roundup. (Reply to this)

	seperis 2009-09-04 12:25 am UTC (link)
	Yes, this. I'm seriously not okay with this, and I'm less okay the more I think about it. You articulated it very well. (Reply to this)

fridgepunk
2009-09-04 01:01 am UTC (link)

Okay serious cat is serious posting now

This was originally a comment that got out of hand in reply to this, I accept your position but I see the RPS as performing a neccesary duty for some of us, and I have deleted what I had written of the second RPS I was working on if people are finding it problematic.

I honestly half expected the first RPS I wrote to get loads of "dude you are lowering the fucking tone jagoff" in the first place.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sohotrightnow
2009-09-04 01:31 am UTC (link)

I suspect we have incompatible histories/sensibilities, at the end of the day. The implication that there are circumstances under which sexual harassment -- to say nothing of sexual humiliation, and using sex as a medium for exerting power -- is warranted offends me just as much as the trespassing that these assholes did. It just offends me in different ways.

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(no subject) -

keeva, 2009-09-04 04:34 am UTC (Expand)

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